DANGEROUS

迈奇礼于1993年毕业于英国谢菲尔德大学建筑系，2004 年以来，他与英国查普门泰勒公司合作设计了多个商业项目。自查普门泰勒上海分公司成立后，他成为该公司的总监之一，并领导设计了公司早期所有的室内设计项目，其中月星集团的上海环球港项目于 2013 年夏季开业，是中国最大的购物中心之一，为顾客带来愉悦且令人振奋的购物体验。

迈奇礼出生于一个教会家庭，在谢菲尔德大学学习之前对教堂建筑产生了浓厚的兴趣。他曾在伦敦，曼彻斯特，香港和上海工作，参与并领导了许多翻新修复的项目。作为查普门泰勒建筑设计咨询（上海）有限公司的董事，他通过寻找可以服务于社区和现在和未来的商业新途径，从而保持现有建筑和历史的相关性。

对话Peter Mackey：定制多元复合城市空间

—— 查普门泰勒一直以来致力于未来商业建筑的发展。

       At Chapman Taylor, we tried to be involved in the future of commercial architecture.

时机时机：可以简单介绍一下您自己和查普门泰勒吗？

Peter ：我是Peter Mackey，与蒋毅一起，担任查普门泰勒上海分公司的董事。我们在商业建筑设计方面已成功地树立起良好的声誉，其宗旨是将公司国际化的一流设计水准与对中国市场和本土文化的认知巧妙结合，打造在商业上获得成功的独特、优质的设计方案。

I'm Peter Mackey, I am the director of Chapman Taylor, here in Shanghai, with Jiang Yi (Johnny). Our design philosophy is very commercially minded. We create bespoke architectural and interior and masterplanning solutions to the problems that we are given. It's very important to us that we always think about the end user, that has to be a successful experience, as commercial developments have to be. And I think that informs our fundamental design philosophy.

查普门泰勒上海分公司成立之前，伦敦总部经常受邀参加来自中国的竞赛项目，通过这个过程，我们进一步了解了当地市场，并决定在上海开设分公司，我也因此成为上海分公司的董事。

Chapman Taylor were often invited to competitions in China and we helped to arrange the meetings, the understanding of the local market, the presentations, and then when the guys in London said they wanted to open an office here, we helped them with the set-up of WOFE company. And I became a director.

上海分公司成立初期主要业务为室内设计，后期逐渐扩大，涵盖了建筑设计的各大领域，包括总体规划、多功能城市综合体、码头和水滨规划及建筑设计，以及购物中心、休闲、住宅、办公楼、酒店、交通类建筑、室内设计和平面设计等。我们的设计基于对客户需求的深入理解，结合对本土文化的认知，打造在商业上成功的设计方案。

So you know how China has developed and our work was very commercial that we were doing it, mostly interiors, a lot of hospitality interiors. Again, it's about understanding the needs of the end user. So our design philosophy was developing here locally. and it resonated with Chapman Taylor's global design philosophy of successful,  commercial architecture. 

查普门泰勒上海分公司在中国成立已有14年了，虽然我来自英国，毕业于谢菲尔德大学，但是我很喜欢上海这个城市，也很享受与上海分公司共同成长的过程。

Chapman Taylor has been in China for fourteen years now. I'm obviously from the UK. I went to university in Sheffield. And yeah, I'm still enjoying it here.c

02

时机时机：您在中国已经待了很长时间，对中国的建筑市场有什么个人理解?

Peter：来上海之前我曾在香港工作3年，其实我收到的第一份来自上海的工作邀请来自于我在香港任职的那家公司的开发商合作伙伴。我觉得中国的发展速度之快令人感到振奋，和英国相比较而言这样的速度可以很高效的完成每一个项目。

I transitioned from the UK to Shanghai through Hong Kong. I spent three years in Hong Kong and actually was offered my first job in Shanghai from a developer who was working with us in Hong Kong. Obviously, the speed at which things happened in Asia, China now is amazing, much more intense than the UK. That makes it very exciting. You can realize projects very, very quickly and feel that you are really contributing. 

我们与开发商和政府密切合作，并深入了解他们的需求，而不是将设计强加于业主，所以我们的建筑风格也是非常多元化，对高质量设计的追求和对文化因素的把握以及业主需求的理解使我们得以为客户提供成功的设计方案。

we work very closely with developers and we listen to what they need. That is why we do not have a house style. We don't impose an architectural style on a developer. We listen to what they want and we help them to achieve that goal, but within a commercially successful framework. 

▲ 巴库塔港 ©查普门泰勒

对我来说，二十年来一直在做同样的工作使我进入一种最佳状态，得以应对客户的需求与高效的工作，并帮助带领团队把握设计节奏与时间节点并按时交付，满足项目预期质量，且适应新的设计理念。我觉得，在过去的20年里，我们呈现概念设计方案与汇报的方式已经发生了巨大的变化。

Twenty years of doing the same thing you kind of, you get in a groove. I think yeah, I think you learn to work at the same pace as the clients require you, get to be able to help the team understand the speed at which you've got to deliver things, but also the quality that people are expecting and also adapting to the new ways of presenting design ideas. Obviously, over twenty years, the way that we present a preliminary and final idea has changed significantly.

03

时机时机：您认为城市规划与室内设计有什么异同？

Peter：我曾就读于英国谢菲尔德大学的建筑系，同时辅修城市设计。就像我前面提到的，中国市场对我非常有吸引力，同时室内设计的即时性也是深刻吸引我的一个特征，所以在当时查普门泰勒进入中国市场的业务背景下，我选择了室内设计。其实室内和城市设计是有很多相同之处的，因为不管是室内空间还是城市空间，设计师都需要为其创造一个人们享受于其中的空间。我们的总体规划设计也是基于这个目标，创造出令人难忘的可持续发展的城市环境。

I went to university and trained as an architect, and Sheffield has a very strong urban design department as well, so I studied that as a minor. As I said, I liked the action and the excitement when I came here and the immediacy of interior design, I found very enjoyable, so I drifted into interior designs cause those were the kind of projects we were getting at the time. And you get to realize them. The similarities, though, whether you are designing an interior space or a sequence of urban spaces, you still have to create environments, sequences that the end user, that the customer will enjoy. So there is a similarity. As you know, we come from a commercial background, and master planning work is informed by that position of creating memorable spaces, of creating a streetscape that people will enjoy.

中国因其高速发展和增长的人口形成了很多大规模的城市空间，但同时也存在众多小尺度空间，并且人们对小尺度空间也持有非常积极的态度。当我们进行城市设计时，会尝试将小尺度空间的设计方式与总体规划相融合，打造宜人且环境友好的社区。我们也会在室内设计中融入这样的方式，比如一些建筑的室内空间有30万平方米，我们需要考虑如何设计出适合人体尺度的空间。

So there are a lot of large scale spaces, urban spaces in China because of the speed of development and because of the number of people who were housed here, and that's fine. But we can see as well that people respond very well to spaces of a smaller scale. we try to think about when we approach master planning. We tried to think of that when we approach interior design, some of the building interiors that we work with are three hundred thousand square meters, so they're still massive and we still need to consider the human scale space for human beings.

04

时机时机：由于疫情，商场的人流量减少。在后疫情时代，我们应该如何来设计购物中心?

Peter：这个问题在当下体现在后疫情时代的社会公共空间的设计。购物中心的主要目的不止是提供零售或餐饮服务，而是为人们提供社交互动的活动场所。购物中心的角色正在变得更多元化，而不仅仅被认知为商业中心，它们可以为社会带来的作用也越来越重要。这也意味着我们需要设计出可以为人们提供出于各种原因而所需的空间，例如为了娱乐，为了自拍等。

That's a great question, and perhaps another layer these days, of course, post-COVID. How should we think about the social spaces because shopping centers, their main attraction is not the retail that is on offer there or the F&B (food and beverage), but it's the opportunity for social interaction. People are still always going to want that and need that. And because of climactic situations, they're going to need it in an enclosed environment quite often in many parts of China. So I think the shopping center provides an important social function. it's becoming in a sense less purely commercial, we are well aware of that, so their social role is actually becoming more important, which is good. It means we have to create spaces that people want to use for various reasons, for entertainment, for selfie value.

英国曾经做过一个很有趣的统计，统计数据显示英国游客最多的文化建筑是泰特现代美术馆和大英博物馆，每年有700万的访客， 而英国游客最多的购物中心是由查普门泰勒设计的特拉福特购物中心，每年接待3000万游客。所以可以看出来人们是很喜欢社交和商业环境的。

But I would like to point out, there's always a very interesting statistic. The most visited cultural building in the UK is the Tate Modern or the British Museum. They get about seven million visitors a year. The most visited shopping centre in the UK is still the Trafford Centre, which Chapman Taylor designed and that gets thirty million visitors a year. So people do like social commercial environments. 

▲ St. Pancras International Station ©查普门泰勒

购物中心的设计需要跟上时代的需求以及不同城市独有的性质。所以我们在中国的项目，会根据不同的市场提供定制的解决方案，例如华东市场，华南市场，北方市场，等，每一个的地域条件都是不一样的。

the shopping centre has to evolve over time. The shopping centre has to evolve over geography as well. So we will come up with a unique solution for the China market for the east China market for the South China market and north. You know these conditions are specific.

▲ St. Pancras International Station ©查普门泰勒

05

时机时机：在城市的更新改造过程中，有哪些问题需要注意呢？可以分享一个相关案例吗？

Peter：几年前，我们在百联第一百货商业中心项目的竞赛中赢得了项目的改造设计权。

We won a project for Bailian number one department store couple of years ago.

第一百货商业中心是上海，乃至全国范围内最重要的，拥有浓厚历史的百货中心之一。它是亚洲第一个拥有自动扶梯的零售场所，虽然现在旧的电梯已经拆除，但项目室内还保留着最初的装饰艺术，我们的设计在尊重历史的基础上最大化恢复商场昔日的辉煌。

That was a very interesting project, and it's great that we won that and got the opportunity to remodel it. The number one department store, as the name suggests is a very important retail space in Chinese shopping history. It had the first escalator of any retail space in Asia. That escalator has gone but the original Art deco interior of that particular building is still there. We tried to bring it back to its former glory. 

考虑到当代百货商店的空间和动线以开放的零售体验为主，我们结合了现代的室内空间设计，同时也在细节的部分，例如天花和立柱等，保留了原有的历史痕迹，让人们可以拥有自由的购物体验，同时也能感受到建筑的历史风味。项目的另一部分改造包括一个针对当代年轻群体的购物中心的升级，以及北侧建筑的改造更新。我们的设计从主题性的角度，将商业中心的各个大楼连接起来，为第一百货商业中心带来了极具统一性却又各具特色的室内空间。

Of course, with contemporary department store concessions in the space and circulation so that people could move around and experience the retail, but also know that they were in somewhere of intrinsic heritage value, so that was the major component. But then there were two other buildings. One was really just a pure upgrade of an existing sort of young persons department store and then the building to the North, which needed a reinvention. It was connected to the historical, the Art Deco Department store, but it had a loss that connection, let's say in design terms in theme terms, and we tried to bring that back.

▲ 上海百联第一百货 ©查普门泰勒

就个人而言我并不支持对老旧建筑的全部拆除重建，每一个建筑在城市环境中都有它的故事和意义，从可持续的角度来看，翻新、改造、再生是比较好的选择。历史遗留建筑可以使人们重新认识一个城市，尤其是在当今众多现代建筑建设的环境下，新老建筑之间需要的是一种平衡。

I'm not a purist in the sense of reconstructing everything. A building should stay in an urban environment, but it must serve a contemporary purpose. So yeah, renovation has to be relevant to the people who are going to use it. And I think I think that that's the way we've approached it. And of course, Refurbishment and regeneration is good from a sustainable point of view as well. If you can reuse components of a building or of a city. Yeah, and I think psychologically as well, but then there is some striking contemporary architecture for striking contemporary uses. So yes, its a balance.

▲ 上海百联第一百货 ©查普门泰勒

当然，在城市重生的过程中，一些建筑的迭代更新也是不可避免的，这也会影响到一个社区的演变。我们位于杨浦滨江的一个服务于新产业相关的项目，就是在工业遗产的基础上找到与现代的平衡，实现新旧产业的一种对话。而这样的改变影响的不仅仅是建筑的表现形式，更是对整个社区发展产生了至关重要的影响。我们所希望的城市更新是一个在各个方面都可以为人们带来积极影响的过程，而不仅仅是为了提升项目的市场价值。

And Gentrification is, yeah, often inevitable as you regenerate parts of the city. Sometimes it's a good thing. Sometimes communities have problems adjusting. And that's not that's not so good. We're actually working on a project now in Yang Pu, where it's about new industries, gaming industry actually. And of course, Yang Pu has a great industrial heritage, so we're trying to find this language between the old industries and the new industries. But I think the government and ourselves are also very mindful that it cannot be a pure gentrification exercise, because the people who are at the forefront of these new industries are not people who were living in beautiful towers somewhere around this area. So there must be a space for people to develop socially, and we hope that we can do some urban regeneration, which isn't purely about gentrification or market value.

因为，现有的社区需求应得到尊重和倾听，这些元素必须纳入最终的解决方案中。

Because I think the residents are stakeholders, of course: Existing communities must be respected and listened to, and these things must be factored into the end solution.  

06

时机时机：如何将可持续发展的理念融合进项目更新中？

Peter：重庆两江协同创新区规划项目规划范围共6.8平方公里。设计以遵从自然为出发点，将先进的科技产业融入到重人的生态环境之中。例如，总体规划中保留了一些基本的农田功能，使现有的农户社区仍然有空间和土地来耕种。同时，融入IT社区，打造先进的科技创新产业园区。我们也可以思考两者的相互融合，可否提高农业的效率，或者以城市农场的形式促进农田和新的社区以及新技术的共融。

we were talking about Chongqing Langjiang, which is nine square kilometers in total. We obviously have to take the ecological and social context very seriously. So that particular project was kind of semi-derelict farmland, and one of the things that we tried to do was maintain some of the basic farmland within the context of our overall master plan, so that the existing farming community still had space and land to farm on. But perhaps the incoming IT community could also maybe participate with them, may be increasing the efficiency of that farming. urban farming, getting to grips with how food is actually produced, some of the old farmland, which was not still used as farmland, we wanted to put back to nearly wilderness, let's say a wildlife habitat so  the ecology was actually growing, as well as farming, and the new community of new technologies in that one space.

▲ 重庆两江协同创新区规划 ©查普门泰勒

目前国内非常重视可持续发展和绿色设计，并且始于总体规划。基于地理位置独天得厚的项目，我们可以利用水能、生物能、太阳能等来自自然地能源来打造在能源方面可以实现自给自足的社区。这些方面在总体规划中可以得到深入思考探讨的机会，而在较小尺度的建筑设计中，考虑比较多的就是来自太阳的热能和光伏发电等。我认为国内的规划与建设正处在一个令人兴奋的时刻，是可持续性和生态平衡建设的高峰时期。

 I think one of the great things that's happening here now is a real drive towards sustainability and a green philosophy in design, and it starts with master planning. So that particular project, because it had water at different heights, we could produce hydroelectric power, because it had so much vegetation we thought of biomass and of course because it had sun, so we calculated that community could be self-sufficient in its electrical power requirements. Obviously you get that sort of opportunity on a bigger master plan, on smaller architecture you have to think about solar thermal and PV to give something back in energy terms. So yeah, I think we're at an exciting point now in China's design philosophy as regards not just sustainability but ecological balance. 

▲ 重庆两江协同创新区规划 ©查普门泰勒

所以我们的设计也经常将海绵城市技术应用到总体规划中，通过将水带入场地的方式充分滋润、活跃项目环境，也可以将洪水对城市环境造成的破坏减少到最小。海绵城市也是一种意识形态，它可以通过传感器和数据进行监控，这就引出了智慧城市，智慧城市也是我们促进可持续发展的一种方式。

so we often apply sponge City technology to our master planning and our large scale architecture, and sponge city is a way of minimizing bringing water onto the site, minimizing mitigating the damage which flood water can produce in the urban environment.  Sponge City is something that can be monitored through sensors, data; and that brings us to smart cities. So smart cities we see as a way of facilitating the sustainable aspirations.

▲ 重庆两江协同创新区规划 ©查普门泰勒

在重庆两江项目中，政府的目标是实现公共交通90%覆盖，这就意味着只有10%的路程是需要通过私家车完成的。因此，智能城市的数据可以帮助检测公共交通的移动，我们设计规划的湖泊为自动驾驶汽车制定了环线，将有助于提高这些车辆的运行效率，促进社区的可持续性。

The aspiration of the government was to achieve ninety per cent public transport mobility. So that means only ten percent of journeys made would be in private vehicles. So smart city in the data that can be produced helps to nuance the movements of the public transport, and the autonomous vehicles that will eventually go around the central lake of that project and will help to make the movement of those vehicles those electric vehicles efficient, which again will be of sustainable benefit to the community.

在项目下一阶段的总体规划中，我们希望能持续围绕智慧城市的主题为重庆两江打造一个创新的社区。查普门泰勒曼谷分公司其实目前在参与一个名为“曼谷一号”的大型智慧城开发项目。这个项目由八座塔楼组成，占地一百万平方米，目前项目设计正在研究传感器定位，参与设计项目的控制中心。这其实是一个迷你智慧城市。我们经常与曼谷分公司的同事沟通，汲取他们的先进理念以及一些想法建议，并将其应用到国内的建筑设计或总体规划中。

Liang Jiang we are taking to the next stage of master planning, and we hope to take that all the way through and yeah be part of smart City movement. Our Bangkok Office has actually been very heavily involved in a major development in Bangkok called OneBangkok. I think it's eight towers. It's a million square meters, and we've worked on smart city control centre. So that project is a mini smart city. We talk to the Bangkok office. They give us some ideas on how we can apply that to either architecture or master planning. 

07

时机时机：对未来行业的发展有什么样的理解？

Peter：疫情之后，人们发现可以在家生活也可以在家办公，这在欧洲已经变成常态，但是人们仍然需要那些具备独特功能的建筑，仍然需要满足社会需求的建造环境。未来更多的是经典与创新的结合，智慧城市体现了信息和技术的飞跃，但是人们也离不开传统的、由一砖一瓦组成的建筑。所以未来让我们共同期待创新作为媒介的全新的城市环境。

People will still need buildings that work the functions that they carry out in those buildings might shift. We might find that we work at home as well as live at home in the future. That's already a shift happening a little bit in Europe because of COVID, But there'll still be a need for built environment to facilitate solutions of what our society needs. I think something that excites a lot of our colleagues is imagining how, going back to smart cities, one can imagine in how information and technology can inform and elaborate our buildings and urban environment. So who knows how much more media will be involved in extending the architectural realm.

08

时机时机：有没有什么话可以对年轻设计师们说的？

Peter：热情。查普门泰勒有一个很棒的团队，我们与伦敦分公司有很多互动，有时也会和欧洲其他分公司进行沟通交流，我们的团队拥有很多能量。我本人也喜欢和充满能量和热情的人一起工作，有时候在结果还未呈现出来之前，可能我们并不知道想要完成什么，这个过程正需要足够的热情来支撑。还有一点，我觉得技术也是未来用于创造更好环境的方式之一，这个年轻一代中可能更有体现。

Enthusiasm. We have a great team here at the moment, and we interact a lot with London. We interact sometimes with Madrid, and there's a lot of energy. I like working with people with energy with enthusiasm who want to achieve something. You don't always know what it is you want to achieve until you get to the end of the process. Technologies is one of the tools that we can use to create better environments.

主编：田宁
采访人：Alex，der媒体部
统筹：田宁，Alex拍摄：der媒体部
视频：田宁

实录校对：Kelly，Alex，鲁

宣传：der媒体部

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合作媒体持续更新中，期待您的加入。

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