和马町（Martijn de Geus）有丰富的生活阅历。最初他在动物园工作了六年，负责照顾园内的大猩猩，当时的他还朝着成为摇滚乐歌手的梦想努力。当他在19岁的时候，人生轨迹发证了改变，他赢得《继雷姆·库哈斯之后》国际设计竞赛，获奖作品“黑盒”（The Black Box）亦在同年被建成，是他的第一个公共建筑项目。
我到北京十年了, 有一家小事务所——汉荷设计[maisonh]。这是一个非常完美的名字，但这不是我想出来的，是我的教授李晓东想出来的。因为我来自荷兰，叫和马町，我的妻子是中国人汉族，她叫张涵。汉荷设计取自我们两人，我们一起做荷兰-中国的设计，尝试以一种新的方式把西方哲学和东方哲学结合起来。So I came to Beijing 10 years ago and I have a small office, and the Office called in Chinese 汉荷设计[maisonh], actually is a really perfect name, I think. it's not invented by me but my Professor Lixiaodong [李晓东] came up with this name because I am from 荷兰 [Netherlands], 和马町 [Martijn]and my wife is Han [汉族]，she s Chinese but also called ZhangHan [张涵]. So it's us together doing the Dutch-Chinese design, and that's kind of what do we do. We try to integrate the Western and the eastern philosophy in a new way.
我们的设计理念在一定程度上基于我们是谁，就像生活定义了我们做什么，也包括我们做的项目。我们的工作室，做的项目，共事的伙伴都是我们理念的表现。所以，它无处不在。Our design philosophy is the foundation of who we are somehow, like our life defines what we do and our life defines what we work on, and also this is into the projects that we do. So where we sit now, our office is based upon what I believe in; the projects, and the people I work with is what I believe in. So, it's in everything.
02 时机时机：是什么让你决定来到北京并留在这里发展？ 马町：我原来并没有想成为一名建筑师，我当过动物管理员，我真的很享受这份工作。我工作的动物园以大猩猩群而闻名，是世界上最大的圈养大猩猩群。这是一个真正的社会群体，这里没有笼子，它们在一起生活，这个环境完全是为让它们原生态生活而设计的。大学在代尔夫特大学学习，荷兰最著名的大学。但学校里的建筑却十分糟糕，在我看来它们只是混凝土盒子，并不是为人设计的，它们是由机器建造，为机器而设计。First of all, I never really wanted to be an architect. Actually, I started studying civil engineering in Holland. And at that time I had started to be a zoo keeper, and actually, I find I really enjoyed that. (插入项目文件中的荷兰动物园相关文件) Because the zoo where I worked is very famous for the Group of gorillas I worked wit. it is the largest group of gorillas in captivity in the world. And it's a really a social group. So there are no cages, they're always all together, they are really amongst themselves and the environment is designed purely for their natural life. And I thought it was amazing, and then I went to study in Delft, which is the most famous university in Holland. And I saw that these buildings that they had there were really terrible. They were all concrete boxes not made for people, they were made for machines and they were made by machines.
18岁那年我赢得了一个小型比赛，那时我刚刚开始在代尔夫特学习，我参加比赛的建筑作品就是我反对混凝土的声明，它是世界上第一个完全由人工绿墙建成的建筑。现在在世界各地都能看到这样的项目，但15年前，或者更长的时间以前，它是第一个。I won a small competition when I was eighteen years old, (插入项目文件中的黑盒项目相关文件) when I was just started studying in Delft, for a building which was just like that. It was my statement against the concrete. It was the first building in the world that was fully grown by artificial green Wall. Now you see them everywhere in the world. But that was really the first one about fifteen years ago, may be a little longer.
马町：找到一个能让你完全实现设计理念的项目和客户很难。所以对我们来说，第一个困难就是找到一个能相互理解的客户，所以我们并不太关心项目是什么，关心的是项目背后的人。It's always difficult to find a project and the client that allows you to do what you believe in. So the first difficulty for us is always to find somebody to work with really well, so I don't care too much about what the project is, but I do care who the person behind the project is.
我们之前遇到一个很特别的机会，客户找我们设计他在北京市中心的的私人住宅，这是一个比较老的社区，一般大家会选择拆掉旧房子，重建一个尽可能大的混凝土房子。And we had one of these persons approaches for a really unique opportunity to design a new private residence in the center of Beijing. All of the neighbors in that area, because it's an older community, would destroy their house and rebuild it as large as possible, with a big concrete box.
客户建造这座新房子主要是为了他的孩子们，能够在空间上真正体现出生活和家庭，营造一种他们在任何其他环境中都无法体验到的感受。我觉得这个想法太棒了，因为我相信真正的空间可以让你改变看待世界的方式。如果你生活在每天都可以看到天空和树木，有阳光撒进来的空间，你就不会害怕大自然，成为一个更好的人。 And he wanted to build this house for his children. ‘I want the house and the space to be really about living and about the family and to be an experience that they will not be able to have in any other environment.’ So I said that's perfect because I believe really that the space you are in can change your view of the world, and if you are growing up in a space where you can see the sky every day and it's beautiful and there's trees and the sunlight is coming in, and you're not afraid of nature, but nature is together with you, I think you can be a better person.
这个房子大部分在地下，地面上只有一块浮动的盒子是卧室，阳光可以一直照到底部。我们设计了自然通风，并让它尽可能地向南。这是一个真正的自然住宅，融合了所有最新的可持续发展技术，为现代城市的生活树立了一个榜样。 And It is a house that is partially underground; and above ground there is only afloating box which has the bedrooms and the sunlight can reach down all the way to the bottom. There is natural ventilation. It's oriented toward the sun in Beijing, it's a real natural house that integrates all the latest sustainable technologies to set an example about what living could be in a modern city. 04 时机时机：在中国做设计的思维和方式与西方有什么不同？ 马町：我们可以看到在中国的当代科学中，很容易理解量子力学的概念和未来的复杂机制。一生二，二生三，三生万物，这个观念在西方世界观里是不存在的。东方哲学里更容易理解直觉和感情，同时也相信科学和逻辑，我认为这是一个面对未来很棒的方式。You can also see that in the contemporary sciences. In China, it is quite easy to understand the concept of Quantum mechanics as a mechanism of the future. Because it's so natural that things can be two things, one truth can be two truths. In the West this is impossible. So I find that eastern philosophy is more flexible, it can be about trusting your instinct and your feelings, as well as trusting science and trusting logic. This is really a great path for the future, I think. 勒·柯布西耶——西方现代建筑的奠基人，作为最伟大的建筑师大师之一，他写道，“直觉是后天学习的产物”。这意味着你本能的感觉来自于你所学到的一切。所以相信直觉是正确的，因为直觉比头脑的反应更快，我认为知道这一点是很重要的。But what I mean to say is, actually Le Corbusier, who is the founder of modern architecture in the West, so one of the greatest master architects, he wrote ‘Intuition is the sum of the acquired knowledge’. That means what you instinctively feel, comes from everything that you've learned. So it's right to trust your intuition because your intuition works faster than your mind and I think that's important to know.
05 时机时机：您是如何看待中国的乡村发展呢？
马町：库哈斯最近在古根海姆博物馆(Guggenheim)举办了名为“乡村”的展览。所以我认为世界上的每个人都开始关注城市之外的事物，关注它们对城市生活的价值，以及它们自身的价值。 Rem · Koolhaas recently did his exhibition at the Guggenheim called the countryside. So I think everybody around the world is starting to look at things outside of the city and how they are valuable for the life in cities, but also within themselves. So then the young people will go there and old people will stay. 在中国，农村确实是一个挑战。不知何时开始，乡建成为了中国年轻建筑师在国际上出名的一种方式。在农村设计建造一幢美好的建筑，看起来非常漂亮。但如果你去参观这些项目，会发现大部分都没有被使用。这些建筑对乡村没有任何作用，它只成就了建筑师，这是非常可怕的。The countryside, it's really a challenge in China, I think. You know this has become really a way for young Chinese architects to become famous internationally. Because wow you do something really nice looking in the countryside, looks so beautiful. But if you go to visit those projects, most of them are not used. So it's terrible. It doesn't actually help. It only helps the architect.
两年前，我们和我们的学生尝试在河北启动一些项目，具体在北京北部，崇礼地区附近，因为2020冬季奥运项目在这个地区进行。那里大约有三四十个村庄，但都非常贫困。家庭平均年收入只有400元，几乎相当于没有。这些村子挨着北京和崇礼，所以我们让学生去帮助其中的四个村子，真正了解当地村民的需求以及收集他们可以利用并创造收入的资源信息。Two years ago with our students in Tsinghua again tried to initiate some projects in Hebei, just north of Beijing, around the Chongli area, the new Olympic developments is all happening in that area. And there are several villages there, about thirty or forty that are extremely poor. They are so poor that on average, the households income for one year is only four hundred yuan, so it's nothing, really poor. But they are right next to Beijing and right next to Chongli. So we provided the services of our students to help four of these towns to really look at what the people need there and what people could use with their own resources to provide some income.
就像我刚才说的，建筑师有能力去研究和理解这些环境相关的过程，并帮助人们改善生活，提高收入，从而促进社会进步，而不是为建造而放置一些怪异的建筑物。我认为这是非常成功的，当地领导人也给了我们非常好的评价。我们为这些村庄提出一些建议，有一个村庄有非常优质的水源，所以我们就思考可以用水做点什么。也许我们可以做一个啤酒厂，因为好啤酒需要优质的水源，如果能在北京卖这种啤酒，也许可以让啤酒带动地区发展。作为建筑师，我们可以看到这种潜力并帮助他们设计。Because again, like I said, architects have the ability to research and understand these environmental processes, and help people better their life, better their income, better the social. But not placing some weird looking buildings for the sake of making the building. So I think that's been very successful. We have gotten very good comments back from the local leaders, and we propose things .There was one village that had really good water. So we thought we could do something with the water. Maybe we can make a beer brewery. Because you know good beer needs a lot of good water, and if you can sell that in Beijing, it's very hip to have this beer. So in that way we as architects can see that potential and we can help them how to design this. 首先，真正需要改变的是人们看待乡村的方式。他们认为农村是机会少，资源少等。就像我之前说的，大多数人都害怕大自然，他们想把大自然拒之门外。农村也是一样，如果人们认为它不好，他们就不会珍视它。我来自荷兰，荷兰是一个很大的乡村。如果中国人可以认识到农村是非常有价值的，那么人们就会愿意去那里生活、工作。First of all, what needs to change really is how people view the countryside. They see the countryside as somewhere with less opportunities, less goods, like that. Just like what I was describing earlier how most people are afraid of nature. They want to keep nature out, not good to keep it in. It‘s same with the countrysid. We are one big countrysides, you know.If that can change in China and people start to see that the countryside is something really valuable, then people want to go.
06 时机时机：您是如何看待智慧城市建设呢? 马町：每当有一种新技术或类似的东西出现，建筑师会自己思考“这意味着什么？我们是否认可？我们能用它做点什么吗？“他们会提出一个理论或愿景，来说明他们对这项技术的感受，这项技术如何影响建筑的思维，以及未来城市和建筑的可能性。但我现在看到的是，这些技术的发展似乎建筑领域的发展无关。关于智能城市系统，人工智能系统，建筑师们只是在研究如何使用它们来建造我们想要建造的东西，并没有考虑如何真正利用这背后的逻辑思维来创造更好的或不同的建筑。the problem is that in the past, whenever there was a new technology or something like that, architects would think by themselves “What does this mean and do we agree with this? Can we do something with it?" And they would come with a theory or a vision on how they feel about this technology, how that influences the thinking of architecture, the possibilities of future cities and buildings. What I see happening now is that these technologies are all developed outside of the architecture field. There might be smart city systems, there are artificial intelligence systems, and architects are only working on how we can use these systems to build what we want to build. But they're not thinking how can we really use the thinking behind this to make better or different architecture.
今年夏天，我和我们的新院长张利聊天，他和我说“马町你知道么，我们正面临建筑这个职业的挑战，即使是在清华。” 这是我从来没想到过的。曾经，清华大学建筑学院是全国顶尖学生的首选，高考毕业生们会选择去清华大学的建筑系或者北京大学的经济系，因为这是对他们最好的选择。但张利说现在越来越多的顶尖学生选择计算机相关学科，人工智能、IT、纳米、量子，所有这些新事物的院系，因为它们才是未来。I just had a conversation this summer with our new dean, Zhangli [张利]. And what he mentioned to me, I had not thought about, he said, ‘you know, Martin. We are facing a challenge as a profession of architecture, also within Tsinghua [清华].’ Because you know, Tsinghua University Architecture School used to be the first choice for top students across China, they would go to Tsinghua architecture [清华建院] or Beijing University’s economics [北大经济]. You would know you would have the best future possible. But nowadays he was saying more and more of these top students choose to go to computer related sciences, AI, IT, nano, quantum, all these new stuff because they are the future.
如果你拥有人工智能博士学位，华为会在你毕业的第一年就以500万的年薪雇佣你。所以，为什么要读建筑？这是一个问题。建筑学作为一门学科，长久以来一直与科学和人文学科分离，因为建筑师们都自认为什么都懂。You know you can do a PhD in artificial intelligence and Huawei [华为] will hire you for five million a year in your first year, right? Why do architecture? And this is a problem. Because for architecture as a discipline, because architecture has so long isolated itself from sciences, also from humanities. Because architects all think they know everything.
我认为建筑应该远离建造这个行为，而更多的去思考如何和环境相互作用。一方面更加科学，另一方面更加人性化，更加以人为本。所以应该减少关注建筑师，减少关于建筑本体。I think it should be really, much more away from the act of building a building and more towards an integrative environment. architecture should become more scientific on the one hand, and on the other hand, more humanistic, more people oriented. So it should be less about the architect, less about the building. 07 时机时机：关于后西方和年轻设计师 马町：几年前我曾说过，我想超越一种信念，即“西方是未来，西方是范式，西方的人们知道一切”这个观念。It was something I said a few years ago, where I thought you know, actually, I want to go beyond this belief that the West is the future, and the West is the model, and we know everything in the West. 我们应该对未来保持开放的态度。我理解人们害怕失去地位，但我认为如果我们可以成为盟友，互相学习。当然，中国仍然可以向美国和欧洲学习，但我觉得中国才是真正的未来，我不知道中国这代人是否真的知道这意味着什么。So I mean we should have an open mind towards the future. And I understand that people are afraid to lose their position. But I think if we can make, can be allies and we can learn from each other. Of course China can learn from America still and from Europe also. But China is really the future. And I don't know if really Chinese, the Chinese generation currently really knows what that means.
我觉得，中国的每个人都很自信，他们总是想成为最好的。为什么？你成为最好后要做什么？最好又意味着什么？我认为随之而来的是责任。我所说的后西方是关于承担责任，作为一个人应该以一种更好的方式生活。你要对环境负责，对你周围的人负责，这是你需要对未来进行的思考。这样的后西方精神，我觉得在中国是可能实现的。Because I feel still, I mean everybody in China is very confident, and they really want to be the best. But why? What are you going to do with that? What does that mean? It comes with responsibility. And that's what I mean to say this post Western is about taking that responsibility, yourself as a person in every day to day life, to live your life in a good way. You know you're responsible to the environment, you are responsible to people around you, and it's your thinking about the future. like that, and i feel in China that's possible.
我再也不认为我什么都知道，我相信从别人身上学到的和自己学到的一样多，事实就是这样。I believe in that. I don't believe anymore that I know everything. I believe I can learn from others as much as I can learn for myself. We'll see about that. 主编：田宁 采访人：Alex、d.e.r媒体部 统筹：田宁、Alex 拍摄：d.e.r媒体部 视频：田宁 张擎苍 实录校对：Kelly、Alex、鲁 宣传：d.e.r媒体部
